Another feat of wowsomeness from M@, nipping out of the Tardis in his tricorn hat!
In regard ‘where they shoot soldiers’. My take on the matter-of-factness is, ‘everyone knows this is the execution place- but condemned red coats are shot according to army rules and regs, not hanged, and that happens here.’👉🏼
You're right; I think shooting was seen as a more appropriate (and perhaps more honourable) death than being hanged alongside everday civilian malefactors. I do wonder how it worked, though. Deserters and the like were usually executed on the spot, pour encourager les autres, but why would this happen in London, before the days of a standing army? What would a soldier in London have to do to get himself shot? All I can think of is when armies were about during the Civil Wars.
Not ‘where they shot soldiers’, or even, ‘where soldiers are shot’, but, ‘where they shoot soldiers’- as if a regular event.
It was the year after the Jacobite rising- ten years before ‘the cruel wars in Higher Germany’ as the folk song has it, but there was enough of it about, as ever is… So as you say, which soldiers, and what would be their offence(s)..?
I have a list, given to me by a curator at the London Museum, of every person publicly executed in London from Tudor times until the last hanging. It shows no soldiers killed at Tyburn in the 1740s -- and nobody executed by firing squad. Perhaps military executions were recorded separately, though.
In 1746, 27 officers and men of the Manchester Regiment - Jacobites - were executed for their role in the failed uprising, but they were hanged, drawn and quartered on Kennington Common, not shot at Tyburn. But they were arguably being treated as rebels traitors and rather than soldiers (a convenient distinction to be made by the winners).
Did you know that Chawton House in Hampshire (Jane Austens brothers house) has a John ROcque map displayed across several room divider styly screens? I saw it a couple of weeks ago and thought of your. More details here chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://chawtonhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/TFSWINTER2011.pdf
I wonder if they would be a good place to display your coloured in map next to it?
Re. The Three-Leggéd Mare: I sing a song of the type known as a 'goodnight ballad', purporting to be the condemned criminal's last words from the gallows. (These mostly take one of two forms: 'don't do like I done'; or 'it wasn't my fault, I was led astray'.)
With the caveat that the folk process is more changeable than written history, from references in the song (Adieu Adieu) it can be quite precisely dated to the 1750s.
There was at this time a sort of cult of the dashing criminal. The condemned would be taken from Newgate to Tyburn (a journey of some three miles), riding in an open cart dressed in their finest clothes, stopping at alehouses etc. along the way, so it was quite the public spectacle. (These clothes would be resold, soiled but washable, afterwards: a perk of the executioner's trade.)
In the Beggar's Opera of 1728, a song tells us that "The Youth in his Cart hath the Air of a Lord, And we cry, There dies an Adonis!"
Thanks for the insights, Rosie. I've never looked into it, but the thing about the condemned stopping at ale houses has always struck me as a bit... well... a bit of a security risk. What better place to attempt an escape, with the help of accomplices. Is there firm, indisputable evidence that these processions really did stop at alehouses, or is it more a folk tradition? I must dig into it sometime.
I'm just reading 1700; Scenes From London Life, by Maureen Waller, & I'm on the chapter about fashion, which is where I got the bit about the executed's clothes being sold. She says "They would fetch a good price in the thriving second-hand market and join the vast wardrobe from which all but the very richest Londoners dressed themselves."
I'm really enjoying seeing the results of your hard work! I've been following it for a while but hadn't realised the houses are done in tiny bricks! (That'll teach me for reading Substack on my phone, I suppose!).
Is it weird that I feel sorry for London's rivers? All forced underground except for the Thames.
The Tyburn tree is so matter of fact. And the soldiers... What on earth was going on there? I know that nowadays the army polices itself, hence the Glasshouse in Colchester accommodating army criminals from petty pilferers, AWOL'ers to murderers, all under one roof. I wonder if it was the same then, so that they were executed by firing squad, rather than hanged? It looks like a pillar or column that they'd be tied to (which is bringing to mind the haunting and tragic "Shot at Dawn Memorial"...) But the army was run differently then, and I'm not a military historian so I dunno! The fact that the spot is so near to the Tyburn tree does suggest it's a spot for execution (as if the wording didn't already!).
A surprising number of street name changes since then - I would have excpected them to be more stable in what already looks like a well built up part of town. James has been cut in half, George has been reduced to a yard, and David has become Davies. And it looks as though there never was a North Moulton?
(Just checking it out: David may be a typo, Davies was the family name of Sir Thomas Grosvenor's wife back in the 1670s.)
My own attention wanders up to Grosvenor Square where the American embassy would later be located before moving to its latest incarnation nearer the river Thames
‘Fortunately in England, at any rate, education produces no effect whatsoever. If it did, it would prove a serious danger to the upper classes, and probably lead to acts of violence in Grosvenor Square.’
Or even with the sense of ‘where d’you want these soldiers..? Ah, shoot ‘em over there..’ One of those terms lost from UK formal usage, but kinda drifted across the Atlantic…
Another feat of wowsomeness from M@, nipping out of the Tardis in his tricorn hat!
In regard ‘where they shoot soldiers’. My take on the matter-of-factness is, ‘everyone knows this is the execution place- but condemned red coats are shot according to army rules and regs, not hanged, and that happens here.’👉🏼
You're right; I think shooting was seen as a more appropriate (and perhaps more honourable) death than being hanged alongside everday civilian malefactors. I do wonder how it worked, though. Deserters and the like were usually executed on the spot, pour encourager les autres, but why would this happen in London, before the days of a standing army? What would a soldier in London have to do to get himself shot? All I can think of is when armies were about during the Civil Wars.
Mmm… But it’s current in 1746.
Not ‘where they shot soldiers’, or even, ‘where soldiers are shot’, but, ‘where they shoot soldiers’- as if a regular event.
It was the year after the Jacobite rising- ten years before ‘the cruel wars in Higher Germany’ as the folk song has it, but there was enough of it about, as ever is… So as you say, which soldiers, and what would be their offence(s)..?
I have a list, given to me by a curator at the London Museum, of every person publicly executed in London from Tudor times until the last hanging. It shows no soldiers killed at Tyburn in the 1740s -- and nobody executed by firing squad. Perhaps military executions were recorded separately, though.
In 1746, 27 officers and men of the Manchester Regiment - Jacobites - were executed for their role in the failed uprising, but they were hanged, drawn and quartered on Kennington Common, not shot at Tyburn. But they were arguably being treated as rebels traitors and rather than soldiers (a convenient distinction to be made by the winners).
Hi,
Did you know that Chawton House in Hampshire (Jane Austens brothers house) has a John ROcque map displayed across several room divider styly screens? I saw it a couple of weeks ago and thought of your. More details here chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://chawtonhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/TFSWINTER2011.pdf
I wonder if they would be a good place to display your coloured in map next to it?
Mary
Thanks Mary. I didn’t know until a few weeks ago when two other readers tipped me off. I shall have to get over there some time!
Such gruesome truths encapsulated in those tiny details.
I'm intrigued to learn that that Rotten Row is thought to be derived from Route du Roi. So interesting how place names evolve.
This is so interesting. Thank you for your colouring and your information,
What a great exploration! A model for the rest of us!
Re. The Three-Leggéd Mare: I sing a song of the type known as a 'goodnight ballad', purporting to be the condemned criminal's last words from the gallows. (These mostly take one of two forms: 'don't do like I done'; or 'it wasn't my fault, I was led astray'.)
With the caveat that the folk process is more changeable than written history, from references in the song (Adieu Adieu) it can be quite precisely dated to the 1750s.
There was at this time a sort of cult of the dashing criminal. The condemned would be taken from Newgate to Tyburn (a journey of some three miles), riding in an open cart dressed in their finest clothes, stopping at alehouses etc. along the way, so it was quite the public spectacle. (These clothes would be resold, soiled but washable, afterwards: a perk of the executioner's trade.)
In the Beggar's Opera of 1728, a song tells us that "The Youth in his Cart hath the Air of a Lord, And we cry, There dies an Adonis!"
Thanks for the insights, Rosie. I've never looked into it, but the thing about the condemned stopping at ale houses has always struck me as a bit... well... a bit of a security risk. What better place to attempt an escape, with the help of accomplices. Is there firm, indisputable evidence that these processions really did stop at alehouses, or is it more a folk tradition? I must dig into it sometime.
I'm just reading 1700; Scenes From London Life, by Maureen Waller, & I'm on the chapter about fashion, which is where I got the bit about the executed's clothes being sold. She says "They would fetch a good price in the thriving second-hand market and join the vast wardrobe from which all but the very richest Londoners dressed themselves."
I assumed the criminal wouldn't be let off the cart, more like someone buys them a drink on the way past. It's definitely a well-established myth
I'm really enjoying seeing the results of your hard work! I've been following it for a while but hadn't realised the houses are done in tiny bricks! (That'll teach me for reading Substack on my phone, I suppose!).
Is it weird that I feel sorry for London's rivers? All forced underground except for the Thames.
The Tyburn tree is so matter of fact. And the soldiers... What on earth was going on there? I know that nowadays the army polices itself, hence the Glasshouse in Colchester accommodating army criminals from petty pilferers, AWOL'ers to murderers, all under one roof. I wonder if it was the same then, so that they were executed by firing squad, rather than hanged? It looks like a pillar or column that they'd be tied to (which is bringing to mind the haunting and tragic "Shot at Dawn Memorial"...) But the army was run differently then, and I'm not a military historian so I dunno! The fact that the spot is so near to the Tyburn tree does suggest it's a spot for execution (as if the wording didn't already!).
A surprising number of street name changes since then - I would have excpected them to be more stable in what already looks like a well built up part of town. James has been cut in half, George has been reduced to a yard, and David has become Davies. And it looks as though there never was a North Moulton?
(Just checking it out: David may be a typo, Davies was the family name of Sir Thomas Grosvenor's wife back in the 1670s.)
Another part of the map expertly colored in to see, and now it in is wonderful full glory. Brought to life by Mr. Brown. A wonderful edition.
A friend just suggested that it could be a misprint for ‘where they site soldiers’ i.e. to police the proceedings…
My own attention wanders up to Grosvenor Square where the American embassy would later be located before moving to its latest incarnation nearer the river Thames
Yes, I love the geometry of the gardens in 1746. The square will close shortly for a major revamp, which will hark back to its origins https://londonist.com/london/great-outdoors/grosvenor-square-transformation-woodland
‘Fortunately in England, at any rate, education produces no effect whatsoever. If it did, it would prove a serious danger to the upper classes, and probably lead to acts of violence in Grosvenor Square.’
Which’s why they moved to Nine Elms…
Or even with the sense of ‘where d’you want these soldiers..? Ah, shoot ‘em over there..’ One of those terms lost from UK formal usage, but kinda drifted across the Atlantic…